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UNRELEASED: scheduled for
VIP 25007* (B), January 1965
B-side of Do You Know What I’m Talkin’ About
(Written by Clarence Paul and Robert Fleming)
Another fascinating little snapshot of what’s been going on in the world of the Downbeats, the proto-Elgins, while we’ve been away following other people here on Motown Junkies.
After a long apprenticeship with no hits throughout the Fifties (shades of the Four Tops!) in various line-ups and different incarnations, most notably as the Five Emeralds/Five Sensations, the Downbeats had finally signed to Motown back in 1961 – but this was their first single in three years. Also, it’s debatable how close this one ever came to actually being released, given that it appears in no discographies, and that no promos were ever pressed up for radio. Both proposed sides here were old, archive cuts by the time of the (supposed) planned release date, but at least that means we get to hear what the guys – and at this stage, they were all guys – had been up to while the rest of Motown went supernova around them.
The answer appears to be “not all that much”. On the evidence of these two selections, apparently the Downbeats were like the early Majestics/Monitors without the catchy songs: effectively, they were a poor man’s Temptations. The A-side, Do You Know What I’m Talkin’ About, had been very much like an early, throwaway Tempts cut, the sort of thing they’d have used as a B-side, or shoved on Side 2 of their début LP as filler to bulk out the running order (or both, I suppose, knowing how the early Temptations worked). It was nice enough, quite good fun as it happens, but very much out of step with what all their labelmates were doing; if you’d had to guess, knowing it was a Motown track, you’d have said it was from 1962, maybe early 1963… certainly not 1965. Which may explain why it didn’t get as far as the shops.
Turn the imaginary record over, and the proposed B-side’s even older. This side actually predates Do You Know What I’m Talkin’ About by nearly a year, and as such it’s got more in common with the Temptations of 1961/2, all weird, unearthly chords and doo-wop harmonies and oddball, choppy tempo changes, than the Motown of 1965. In fact, it’s VERY similar to the Tempts’ long-forgotten second single, Check Yourself – but that was November 1961. Three years is a long time in pop music ANYWHERE; in the context of Motown’s burgeoning mid-Sixties Golden Age, it’s a lifetime.
I’ve been accused of “recentism” here on Motown Junkies in the past, of giving undue weight to hindsight and failing to take into account what something sounded like when it was first made. Which is fair enough – I was born in 1978, and I make no bones about not having “been there” first time around. Much as I’d love to, I can’t transport myself 25 years back in time, “un-hear” all the records I know came later, and listen to this stuff afresh. But historical context does rear its head from time to time, and that’s when – while plugging my way through the entire catalogue, in strict date order, record by record – I come across something which is so obviously out of date compared to the stuff around it. Again, I freely admit it makes no sense for me to be bothered by such things – when we’re talking about such old music, several more pop lifetimes having elapsed since all these singles were brand new, then surely it makes little difference whether something is 52 years old, or 48, or 46 – it’s still old, right?
And yet I find it does matter. Probably because I’m having to listen to everything Motown put out, in order (and it’s actually going more slowly than it did in real life!), and so when something like You Say You Love Me lurches unexpectedly out of the trembling speakers, out of sync with what’s around it, out of place in time… well, it’s especially noticeable. A song like this, which sounds like it’s been lashed together from a number of different sources and then served up with no great care taken over the vocals, sticks out like a sore thumb.
But this sound, this weird, alien sound – a sound I dubbed “space age doo-wop” when the Temptations were doing it, and which surely applies just as much here – is something I like, and so in this case, the record’s almost aggressively dated nature might work in its favour. The Downbeats as presented here, an all-male vocal five-piece featuring two guys who wouldn’t make it to the group’s impending rebirth as the Elgins (Thomas Salisbury (also spelled “Saulsberry”), and the group’s sometime guitarist Robert Fleming, who didn’t sing at all according to some sources, and who co-wrote this song with Motown writer/producer Clarence Paul) are undeniably a group with potential, though that potential wouldn’t be comprehensively unlocked until the mix was stirred up with the later addition of new lead singer Saundra Mallett Edwards. Like the Temptations before the arrival of David Ruffin, these Downbeats are the pupa of a great group, patiently waiting for their shot at greatness while providing plenty of good tunes in their own right.
Things start out in slightly ropey fashion, a big Fifties intro (Hey-hey-hey-yeah!) leads to the other Downbeats chanting/barking Say! You! Love! Me! over and over again; it’s not a great blend, but as soon as the lead singer’s engaging tenor starts drifting over the top of it all, it’s a pleasing sound that demands attention. As usual on these old Downbeats cuts, it’s long been believed that Johnny Dawson handles the lead (he’s credited as such in the liner notes to the above Motown Anthology CD, though according to a recent interview article, Norman McLean lays claim to all the male Downbeats/Elgins lead vocals); whoever it is, he does a nice job with it, coping admirably with the strange, syncopated stop-start rhythm, not to mention the frequent bits that sound like interpolations from other songs altogether.
This isn’t a great record – in fact, boiled down to its core ingredients, it’s probably quite a bad record – but it’s experimentally bad rather than lazily bad, and I have a real soft spot for this kind of over-ambitious structure. It’s not enough for me to overlook its many flaws, nor the fact it’s at least two and a half years out of date, but it’s not horrendous. It’s actually quite a challenge to follow it all the way through (goodness knows what radio might have made of it, had any promos actually been sent out), but I commend it for its awkwardness.
Still, this is very much an appetiser, a curtain-raiser for the entrance of the Elgins proper which is coming up in a few months’ time; beyond that, it’s an interesting listen, but ultimately little more than that. Perhaps appropriately for such a dated record, the group who made it were already being consigned to history.
MOTOWN JUNKIES VERDICT
(I’ve had MY say, now it’s your turn. Agree? Disagree? Leave a comment, or click the thumbs at the bottom there. Dissent is encouraged!)
You’re reading Motown Junkies, an attempt to review every Motown A- and B-side ever released. Click on the “previous” and “next” buttons below to go back and forth through the catalogue, or visit the Master Index for a full list of reviews so far.
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| The Downbeats “Do You Know What I’m Talkin’ About” |
Hattie Littles “Conscience I’m Guilty” |
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This recording has a lot of flaws, partly because it was not finished. I believe that Quality Control had no intention of releasing it. Neither side of this so-called “scheduled” record were given the ‘fix-up” treatment that records nearing readiness for release got.
When perusing The Motown Vaults during the late 1970s for recordings to place on The “From The Vaults” album series, Tom Depierro and I found the Jobete Music “ownership proof” acetate of this song. It was basically a raw, unfinished recording, that had had little thought and effort in its mixing. The Motown Singles’ version sounded no different. By the way…..the date on that acetate was somewhere near the middle of 1963, if I remember correctly.
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Robb, I’ve enjoyed those two “Vaults” albums all these years, even finding them on cassette as well as vinyl. Tell us more about the story behind the creation of those 2 releases. Two of my favorites and they were surprises at the time. I recall one of them had a Mary Wells tune that had already been released as an album cut on Motown 605. Never could understand that.
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During the mid -70s, Tom DePierro, who worked for Iris Gordy on album packaging, asked her if he could put together some albums of previously unreleased recordings, making the point that big Motown fans couldn’t get enough of that kind of music, AND that there were plenty of terrific unreleased cuts that were just as good as the songs that had been released. He knew about them, as he had been listening to acetates found in The Motown Vaults. He was then allowed to listen to master tapes and acetates and other recordings in The Vaults, to come up with a group of the best songs, to convince his higher-ups that such a project would be worthwhile. I had been his friend for several years before that, and he had heard many rare Motown cuts from my record collection, and knew that I knew a lot about Motown’s recordings. So, he brought me in as a consultant. We listened to recordings for a few years, as his bosses waffled as to whether or not our project would be given the go-ahead. It was decided in 1978, that five albums would come out on Motown’s new Natural Resources imprint, and if they would sell well, another five would be produced. We had a large list of songs we wanted on the albums, much more than would fill the 10 albums (in priority order-in 12 song album groupings). Most of them had been unheard by anyone outside Motown until that time. That giant list came from our sporadic listening from 1976-77, as well as intense work in 1978 and early 1979 (after the project had been sanctioned).
We chose our favourite songs (after a lot of squabbling over that). We had several songs by lesser artists/groups chosen. But, for the first album we were ordered to go only with unreleased songs by major Motown stars. We were only allowed to “sneak” one song by The Majestics, after changing their name to their later namesake, The Monitors. Even then, there were several complaints that not enough general Motown fans would remember that group.
The first album got NO marketing push, whatsoever, and had very little sales. So, unfortunately, the album project was completely dropped. In 1980. Tom left Motown, and formed Airwave Records. I joined him there as a co-owner. Three years later, in 1982, other people at Motown, built on our work, and released one more Vaults unreleased album, again, mainly using Motown’s major 1960s artists. In the meantime, tapes of many unreleased cuts and acetates, which had been removed from The Motown Vaults, and auctioned off, reached Great Britain. They were bootlegged fro The Northern Soul Scene. Bootleg tapes of them were sold, as well as bootlegged 7 inch singles. However, the amount of cuts that got pressed on vinyl was only a small percentage of what remained in The Vaults. Much of the best of that has now been released on legitimate CDs by Universal/Motown, Hip-O-Select, Ace/Kent, and other outlets. I would estimate that about 90% of the cuts I wanted released have finally been released. And, most of those that have not, are by artists who have never had a release, and are from the early period (1959-62). I will continue trying to convince my friends at Ace and Kent that a limited release project of early unreleased Motown various artists will at least pay for itself, so that the likes of Edward Earling and other Motown unknowns can become known to the public.
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Cool to know this info!
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fascinating backstory!!
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Makes sense – as you said on the A-side, it’s extremely doubtful the idea Motown were actually going to release this ever got too far. That said, I actually like the fact that it’s so weird and wonky – I think I’d grow bored of it if it was tidied up and buffed to a fine sheen, never mind drenched in strings etc.
Since you brought up the From the Vaults LPs, a thousand thank yous, if I’ve not said so already, on behalf of all Motown fans for helping to make all that great material properly available for the first time.
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I like the quirkiness of this recording as do you. But, I’d rate it higher than “4” (perhaps “5” would be a better fit).
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I must say this is one of the best cd’s to be released in this seriesyet. I thought the “B” artist who had only 1 or 2 hits, maby had a handfull of things in the vaults. My God, there are nearly 40 or so greatsongs here. What an awsome surprise! Berry Gordy, you were really thebusy little bee. Then the other surprise on these cd’s is what theyrecorded versions of. Jerry Butler’s “For your precious love”James Brown’s fabulous”It’s a man’s world” , just to mention a few.The stero mix of the “Darling Baby” lp is something to listen to.I will not list my favorite cuts, all I can say is that, if youare truley a motown fan, you will be pleasantly surprised.
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From 1964 through 1972, Motown”s studio (2 studios since mid 1966) were recording songs 24 hours each day, ALL for Motown’s potential release to the public. They stopped leasing out recording time to outside customers near the beginning of 1964. It is thus not surprising that there were so many unreleased recordings sitting in The Motown Tape Vaults. What IS surprising, is the sheer volume of recordings of songs whose quality was better than a good portion of what actually got released. Thank goodness it is all finally being released for the public to enjoy.
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I do agree that this song has flaws, but I like it. IMO the lead singer is good because he keeps the listener captivated. There’s no doubt in my mind that if this had been released in the late 50’s this would have been a huge hit. I think a 4/10 is fair, but I would’ve given this a 6/10 for effort.
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hi, Robb, i have in my possession a 7″ acetate of downbeats “you say you love me” the label is somewhat a black and white copy type detailing national sound corporation Detroit also artist,title and then below what i assume writers…Clarence Paul and Robert Flemming….do you think this is a 60s MOTOWN acetate or UK 70s one from the tapes you mention, best wishes and loving all your info and comments, steve
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Hi Steve. From your description, it sounds like it COULD be a Motown Corp. acetate, or an ’80s British Northern Soul market press-up. I’d have to see it to tell if it is the original. I MIGHT be able to tell if it is a boot or original by seeing a high-resolution scan, but might actually need to hold the record in my hands. I’m loathe to put my e-mail address on a public website. So. it would be best for you to send me a private message on either http://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums , or http://www.soulfuldetroit.com. I assume that you are already a member of one of those. If NOT, please join one of them, and PM me with your e-mail address. Then we can talk by e-mail, and you can send me a scan of the record.
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