Tags
UNRELEASED: scheduled for
VIP 25007* (A), January 1965
b/w You Say You Love Me
(Written by Brian Holland, Norman Whitfield and Eddie Kendricks)
A long, long-awaited return to Motown Junkies for the Downbeats, the group who would soon morph into the much-loved, criminally-overlooked Elgins.
For now, they were still the Downbeats, an all-male crew before the addition of new lead singer Saundra Mallett Edwards, and their sound was still rough and ready. Or rather unready; they weren’t quite the finished article, and the paucity of releases so far was testament to that.
It had been almost three years since the Downbeats’ last single, Your Baby’s Back (a plodding little number backed with a rollicking rocker, the hearty Request Of A Fool), and it’s not even clear how close this, which would have been only their second Motown 45, came to actually being released. Certainly it never saw the shelves of any record store, nor was it ever heard on the radio (there are no promo copies); it’s the most unreleased of unreleased recordings.
A MIDSUMMER NIGHT’S DISCOGRAPHICAL INTERLUDE
Indeed, this one appears in no discography, but the diligent researchers compiling The Complete Motown Singles: Volume 5 found paperwork suggesting it was slated for release at the start of 1965, and should have been released as VIP 25007, a number instead allocated to the Velvelettes’ Needle In A Haystack.
Now, this site isn’t really about collector geekiness, but just for once I’d like to beg your indulgence for a moment while I get nerdy, for the benefit of the eight readers who are interested in this stuff; everyone else can just skip the next paragraph. See you all again in a moment.
Okay. Are they gone? Right. It seems highly unlikely to me that Motown would either schedule two different artists (not records, but artists) for the same number, or schedule a release with a catalogue number four months out of sequence (which suggests that perhaps this should have appeared earlier in The Complete Motown Singles series, and not in January 1965 at all). Eagle-eyed readers will also have spotted there IS no VIP 25014, and that this phantom Downbeats single – if released where the TCMS compilers put it – would slot in exactly between 25013 and the similarly unreleased 25015. I was highly, highly tempted, in a Motown Junkies first, based on pure conjecture, absolutely no evidence whatsoever, and me not having seen any of the secret paperwork, to make a completely unfounded editorial decision, call this single that never existed 25014, and not an alternate 25007 scheduled four months out of sync, and let future discographers pick the bones out of it. But I can’t quite bring myself to do that. Damn and blast. It seems so obvious though. 25014. Say it with me. 25014.
Ahhh, that feels better.
And now, back to the actual blog.
WELL, DO YOU?
What we have here, ladies and gentlemen, is an outtake among outtakes. The song never surfaced again after its abortive brush with the release schedules, and the group who made it were about to be consigned to history; the next time we meet these guys, they’ll have shed some members, gained some members, and become a mixed-gender group, the best such example on Motown’s books until the arrival of Gladys Knight and the Pips. This is the last contact we’ll have with this incarnation of the Downbeats, and (as noted above), it’s the first we’ve heard from them for three years. Why?
They’d been busy alright, playing small venues, padding out the numbers at the bottom of Motown touring revues, occasionally heading back to Hitsville to cut a couple of new songs which would invariably end up consigned to the shelves. (Much of this material – twelve tracks in all – was eventually released on the Elgins’ highly recommended Motown Anthology, pictured above.) But Quality Control were never much impressed with the Downbeats, and so no actual record releases ever ensued.
This turned out to be a lucky break for all Motown fans, if not for the Downbeats themselves; their lack of progress, which led two Downbeats (Tommy Salisbury and Robert Fleming) to jack in the whole enterprise and walk away, also led to them being paired with similarly-struggling, equally frequently shelved solo vocalist Saundra Mallett and reborn as the Elgins.
I say this was lucky, because the Elgins were great, and the Downbeats…not so much.
While this is quite good fun and everything, it’s never a hit single in a million years, and certainly not if the year in question is 1965. A bouncy, but rather thin, R&B rocker that sounds like something the pre-fame Temptations might have used as album filler (perhaps not surprising, given Temptation Eddie Kendricks cops a songwriting credit for this), it swings and it’s got a good beat, but I challenge anyone to sing it back to me after one listen.
During this, the height of Motown’s mid-Sixties “Golden Age”, Quality Control supposedly selected singles for release by playing them alongside the current Top Five and seeing how well they stacked up; I cannot for one second imagine this standing out among such competition.
Also, the lead Downbeat (Johnny Dawson?) doesn’t really have the vocal chops to sell the song, his lead coming across slightly underpowered and not up to the job of carrying such heavy weight (shades of, say, Herman Griffin or even Eddie Holland; I say “underpowered”, but it’s not so simple as a lack of power as such (or not only that, at any rate), but rather a lack of presence, or star wattage, or whatever you want to call it.)
For all of that, it’s not half bad, this. It’s a smashing groove, rather than a great song, but that’s no crime, and the repeating piano and bass are plenty engaging. Mr Lead Downbeat’s slightly weedy vocal is also likeable in its way (again, like Griffin or Holland), as he’s obviously having fun with the song. And you can dance to it, which counts for something.
Good fun while it’s playing, completely forgettable once it’s done; it bears absolutely no relation to the future of the Elgins, not to mention the rest of the Motown catalogue at the time, but it’s nice enough. Not great, not bad. Pretty much the very definition of a five out of ten record here on Motown Junkies, and so that’s what I’m giving it.
MOTOWN JUNKIES VERDICT
(I’ve had MY say, now it’s your turn. Agree? Disagree? Leave a comment, or click the thumbs at the bottom there. Dissent is encouraged!)
You’re reading Motown Junkies, an attempt to review every Motown A- and B-side ever released. Click on the “previous” and “next” buttons below to go back and forth through the catalogue, or visit the Master Index for a full list of reviews so far.
(Or maybe you’re only interested in the Elgins? Click for more.)
 |
 |
| The Four Tops “Where Did You Go” |
The Downbeats “You Say You Love Me” |
DISCOVERING MOTOWN |
|---|
Like the blog? Listen to our radio show! |
| Motown Junkies presents the finest Motown cuts, big hits and hard to find classics. Listen to all past episodes here. |
Sadly, I failed your challenge Steve D.! Lol I can’t sing this song back. I don’t think this is a bad song…it’s just missing some important componets such as a good lead vocal, tighter backing vocals & a catchier hook. Had this song been mastered or is this just a demo? I agree with the 5/10.
By the way, I always assumed the Eligins were an all male bad. Thanx for the history lesson Steve.D.
LikeLike
These Elgins Had a female lead singer on EVERY song for which they were called “The Elgins”, so, I wonder why you thought they were all male. And I wouldn’t call them a “band”, as I believe that NONE of them play instruments on their recordings, or on stage on their shows.
There was a male Elgins group on Lummtone Records in the early ’60s, and also one on Flip Records in the late 1950s and early ’60s, and on Congress Records in the mid ’60s. These were both operating out of L.A.
LikeLike
The reason I thought that is because Elgin is a male name so…
Oh yeah I didn’t mean to call them a band, I don’t know why I said it lol
LikeLike
Oh! I didn’t know that Elgin is a male name. Well, I forgot about Elgin Baylor. Do you know from what language it comes, and what it means?
I know that the first name considered for the newly-formed Temptations was “The Elgins”. I guess having 3 males and one female constitutes a “more male than female group” (thus allowing a male name).
LikeLike
It’s an old Scottish surname, based on a place name (though the Scots pronounce it with a hard “G”, whereas the American pronunciation is “Eljins”), but the reason so many Fifties and Sixties R&B groups chose it was because it was the name of a prestigious “status symbol” brand of wristwatch.
LikeLike
Lol thanx for the name background info Steve D.
LikeLike
and an elegant watch it was. I purchased a 1961 Elgin at an estate sale 3 yrs ago in Brooklyn. Those things ain’t cheap!
LikeLike
Yes, I remember Elgin watches. I think it is bizarre thinking to name a group of people after brand names of watches, or automobiles, cigarettes and the like. But then, I’ve never really understood Humans and always thought much of their behaviour bizarre.
LikeLike
When I first heard “Put Yourself In My Place” on the radio, I thought the lead was a male falsetto.
LikeLike
Not so, Robb; on the “Darling Baby” LP, Johnny sings lead on their covers of “When A Man Loves A Woman” and “634-5789”. (A bunch of the previously-unreleased tracks on that Anthology CD also feature Johnny’s leads.)
LikeLike
This is all very interesting, about this so-called VIP “scheduled release”. I never saw this listing on an official release list. We did find “You Say You Love Me” in The Motown Vaults in 1978, and taped it fo consideration for the “From The Vaults” album series. It was recorded in spring 1963. I never saw, nor heard “Do You Know What I’m Talkin’ About”. But, I’d be surprised if ANY Downbeats’ male lead (Johnny Dawson) occurred as late as 1964. And, I wonder why there would have been ANY serious thought to release 2 1963 (dated) cuts in 1964. Again, I don’t remember any talk about a second Downbeats’ release until “Darling Baby”, after Saundra Mallett Edwards joined the group, and Berry Gordy tried to “resurrect” them.
I suspect that the “listing” of this record as a “scheduled” release was more political than anything else, to placate Dawson and his group (and Motown never had ANY intention to release it). Maybe they wanted to buy some time until the new group could record some songs with Saundra Edwards on lead?
LikeLike
After listening to this, I’d give it a “3”, and I am convinced it was also from their 1963 recording sessions. So, I am also convinced that Berry and Billie Jean Brown and the other quality control staff NEVER really considered releasing this pair of dated recordings. I’m sure that the “scheduling” was to keep Dawson and his group from complaining (and possibly quitting), and, thus buying time until HDH could get Daundra Edwards integrated into the group and get some recordings done with her on lead.
LikeLike
I agree with the overall argument, but just a quick factual point – the vocals for this were indeed recorded June 6, 1964 (the band track was completed two days previously). There are 12 cuts from the all-male Downbeats on that Elgins Anthology CD up there and they range in date from throughout 1961-1964. (There are also three solo Saundra Mallett demos, but there are no recording dates attached to those).
LikeLike
I would guess that the 3 Saundra Mallett recordings were made in 1062 or 1963, which covered the main period of her time with Motown as a solo artist.
LikeLike
That should read 1962 or 1963.
LikeLike